SPEAKER_00 0:08

Imagine going from making giant clamshells at midnight for a Tim Walker shoot in a haunted country house to putting your name to a Selfridge's Christmas window, and then being commissioned by Joe Malone, Nike, Stella McCartney, and creating a chic soft play exhibition at the William Morris Gallery, all while navigating PCOS, prenatal depression, and then welcoming the wild reality of becoming a mum. Well, in today's episode of Mothers of Creativity, I'm in East London with set designer Scarlet Winter, who shares how years assisting Shona Heath, late night shoots, and even chaotic days with birds, butterflies, dogs, rabbits, and an unexpected albino headshot on set all led her to a more focused, creatively fulfilled life after motherhood. If you've ever wondered whether stepping into motherhood means stepping back from big exciting work, Scarlet honestly is living proof that your biggest, most meaningful projects really do come after you've had a baby. I'm almost like, I don't know where to begin, Scarlett. We've got Shona Heath, we've got Glastonbury, we've got Nike, we've got Stella McCartney, we've got Merton Marcus, we've got a new children's adventure space at the William Morris Gallery. Like, um it's absolutely amazing what you have packed into your career so far. So as a complete um Tim Walker fangirl, I think why don't we start off by talking about your time with Shona Heath, who, if listeners are not familiar with Shona Heath and Tim Walker, then I cannot believe you call yourself a creative. Oscar-winning. Oscar-winning Shona Heath. Oscar-winning Shona Heath, absolutely. Shona and Tim had an incredibly successful and famous partnership and collaboration. So please, Scarlett, tell me, where were you in your career when you joined Shona?

SPEAKER_02 2:56

I was at quite a sort of transitionary state of my career. I had had a bit of sort of it had been very bumpy since graduating into a recession in 2008. And I had sort of tried getting a real job uh working in a sort of as a producer as a in an arts charity, and then got made redundant because that what how that's what happened all that time. Then I went to Berlin and I worked at a theatre, but that was I was a bit too sort of party party, and I was like, this isn't gonna go anywhere. Um so I came back and I was just I'd just started working um with my friend who had done a proper, but who was an amazing creative mother force of wonderfulness, Phoebe Lewis, um, is an interior designer, and at the time she was a um vent designer, and she got me in because she knew I was creative, sort of like styling. And through that, I just sort of started picking up bits of work, and then I met somebody who worked at Rare Tierstein's studio, who was an old um uh assistant of Schoener's, and then I got invited to the Tim Walker Christmas party, which was the most fabulous thing that had ever happened to me in my entire life. Um, and I went in there and just chatting to everybody, like wasn't a particularly kind of you know, networky person. I was just drunk and having a lovely time, and I made really good friends with one of Shona's assistants, and you know, I didn't realize it, and she took my number and then she messaged me. And me and my friend Holly, who worked as a sort of got almost a bit typecast working as a bit of a duo, started assisting Shona freelance, and just it was wonderful. It was like, I mean, you know, some people sort of like the sandhurst of set design. It's the like where you go to learn from the extreme best, and yeah. What were you doing there? Well, just lots and lots and lots of things. So predominantly in the studio making things, I think a lot of it kind of went over my head a bit at the time because I was, I wouldn't say very young, but quite green. Um, and we were working on, you know, really massive productions for like Dior Catwalk shows at like the Bureau Batak. I mean, the m the biggest one was it was commissioned by uh a Dutch woman, I think, um, for this for a gallery, but it was the Hieronymous Bosch um series that Tim and Shona did. And that was like running all over the circus. We went to Eglingham Hall um in Northumberland in Annik and just uh just with lots of models and other there were maybe like five or six other set design set design assistants and we just had the most incredible time. Just what were the props? The props were I mean it was more just creating. I don't know. Have you seen the work? It's sort of like a big kind of um it was a it's an interpretation of uh Hieronymous Bosch's Garden of Earthly Delights and we so there was lots of naked people. Excellent, lots of naked people in a very as it turned out a pretty haunted um house. I don't know, it wasn't yeah, that's another story, but um and it was uh lots of yeah, lots of incredible models. We were shooting in all these different rooms. April whose house it is is a friend of uh Shona's, a friend of Tim's, um, and is an incredible woman of uh you know, she's sort of old I think our old aristocracy, but uh there were pictures of the Rolling Stones sort of pinned up around the house. There's pictures of Brian Eno, you know, really amazing, uh incredible place to be. Yeah, I mean there was uh the photos that I've got from that shoot. I've got a picture of my friend Chris in a clamshell, sort of us making these massive clamshells. There's very sort of like covering, you know, it at sort of 11 o'clock at night, 12 o'clock at night, we're covering this massive um upholstering this massive sofa, and then it's covered in pearls, and we were all sewing them on, and you know, it was one of those shoots that were you you're working all hours, um, but it was just it was like being in a dream world, and and then just shown as Shona's vision is phenomenal, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Um tell me more about her vision.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

She just her reference points are incredible. Like I remember the first time I went into her studio, I was just flabbergasted by her uh artbook collection and would just you know pour over the books when we had a chance, and I mean she was very generous as well, like lent us some, and it was sort of like an amazing library. Now I'm sort of trying to build up my own one in the background.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

It is very impressive. I feel like everywhere I turn in this wonderful home, there's a bookshelf and art and a print. So yeah, you're doing a very good job.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Oh thank you. Um, but yes, uh just her whole studio is phenomenal, and it there's you know pieces of set all over the studio, and you're as soon as you walk into there, it's a real world of Shona's world. So you can kind of start embodying and understanding her brain and where her influences come from and where her kind of yeah, sort of work ethic as well, like be it working from the studio was amazing because I'd be working on other jobs, I'd be making things in the corner, or I would be um, you know, kind of sourcing things online on the computer and just hearing her dealing with clients and to discussing things, and she was really free with like uh information and just you know advice and has been like an absolute and also talking about motherhood as well, because when I joined her, she'd I think her son was probably about the same age as Otto was now. Like I think he was about two or three. And she was she'd had some time off and she was building back her career again. And she I I remember talking to her a lot about, you know, we'd be on our way to shoots and she would be saying, Oh, you know, I'd be picking her up and she's kissing her little boy goodbye and and I'm in the car and waiting, you know, and and she'd be feeling guilty, and we had a lot of chats about sort of like the the pull between motherhood and creativity and the guilt and you know, how she was made to feel guilty a lot by you know, kind of the mums at school or at the nursery, and she's been as well as creatively, she's definitely been a real sort of guide for me in sort of just laying the foundations of what it is to be a a creative working mum as well.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Absolutely, because there's no rule book, there's no guide, there's no book to read to tell you, right? I mean, it's uh let's just make it up each day as it comes. She sounds like she was a real mentor for you. Um, I guess helping you learn how to work on set.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the just her her presence on set is incredible and it's I've watched so much to kind of just learn how she deals with with clients and you know, especially at her level, you're dealing with incredibly demanding people, and you're dealing with uh, you know, lots of egos as well coming from all sides in front of the camera, behind the camera, to the side of the camera. And she's so graceful and so uh professional, and everything is yes, we can make that happen. And that has been a real like guide for me, and just that the c you know, you we are there to facilitate making people's visions come to life, or our own vision come to life, which is very hard, but also you know, kind of having that as the overarching uh statement, and then going, but you might need a bit more money, or we might need to maybe we do the a bit like this, but I think very much just saying yes and making things happen is something that I have learned from her, and like the I mean, I the minute detail, the minute detail of the storytelling and why things are there, and that's something I mean I can't come close to it, but I feel like I've I learned so much about that about storytelling and narrative and and um detail as well. Story, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

And how would you say that that shows up in your work today?

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Um I love focusing on little things, like so. I've um just I've got an exhibition on at the moment at the William Morris gallery um that I worked on that I designed, and a lot of the things in that were I wanted like small moment, like accidental moments, so that people would really find joy in core like unf like forgotten corners, you know. So you'll be turning down a corridor, and then there's a sort of bizarre little flower stand covered in Liberty Print fabric, and it's got you know, there's just having little moments everywhere, and yeah, having a narrative, even if it's not something that's obvious, I think things things need to tell a story and things need to visually balance you know in some way or another, not through symmetry, but balance.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Yeah, I guess even like perhaps like jog someone's memory and make them feel nostalgic about a certain time or those elements. So you were working for how long with Shona?

SPEAKER_02 14:31

Oh my god. I started working with her when I was about 28 and now I am 40. And I'd say, and I still to be honest, like two years ago, I still go into the studio. If I've got a a quiet patch, I'll go in and I'll give her a text and say, you know, if you want handmaking things, I'll go in and make things because it's so wonderful being there, and it's you know, it's around the corner from me, and and it's nice, you know, to just catch up and have a lovely time, and because she's so busy, it's really not it's a it's a sort of a guaranteed way of seeing her.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

No, that's that's really lovely. And do you think your relationship has changed with her now that you're a mum? Like, you know, you share that really heartwarming anecdote of seeing her kiss her son goodbye, and you know, that was at a time when you didn't have a son, and so therefore don't necessarily have that emotional resonance, but now that is your world. Do you feel like you've your relationship has changed or shifted?

SPEAKER_02 15:41

I haven't seen, I mean, to be honest, I haven't seen her that much. I took Otto into the studio, and that was really lovely into Shona's studio, and we had lunch there, and he was looking at everything, and that was really nice to kind of catch up with her properly. I mean, she's been so busy winning Oscars for incredible production design and I think more coming on the way, and yeah, she's she's a very busy lady.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

So, what made you then decide to actually step back or step out and um stop working with her?

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Well, I it was sort of it was very organic, and I never really stopped working for her. So she had a main like the main assistant, and I was sort of the there for all the jobs, but I I wasn't full-time employed basically. So I had the freedom to step out um when I wanted to. And actually also I mean Shona has been so generous with like sharing work with me, like you know, the amount of incredible contacts and jobs she's passed on to me, which you know, maybe she didn't want to do, or she's and she has done that to lots of her old old assistants as well. And she's a real sharer of work.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Very trusting, obviously, of her team and faith in their team. So can you remember what what was some of the jobs that she shared with you? Well, basically all my really big ones. Excellent.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Um so what was the first one? Oh, so I think she recommended me to Juan Gina from who was the creative director of Joe Malone at the time. And I met Jon Gina on set loads, and I think she and she I also met Emma, who was the photographer I worked with for a long time, or I still work with, um who was Tim Walker's first assistant. So I'd known Emma for years, and then Emma was branching out and doing her own thing, and I think Shona had said, look, you know, it's Scarlett's doing lots more of her stuff that you guys should get together. And then also Jon Gina knew that and it was started off with a small project, and then it just sort of I mean, the whole Jo Malone family is amazing because Ju Gina, she's she's not there anymore, and it's a real loss for them because they there was a real sharing of creativity and work, and there were so many uh people that used to work for Shona or Tim or Tim Walker who Joe Malone employed, and one Gina wanted to have you know, kind of this wealth of creativity that was maybe not technically what you would imagine with that brand, but it was so forward thinking. Um, I mean, yeah, the amazing thing. So, yes, Joe Malone did lots of amazing projects for them. That was really fun.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Tell me about the one that stands out most in your mind. What did you have to do for us?

SPEAKER_02 19:07

Um the one that stands out most in my mind was there was a release of some these townhouse candles, and I'd say that was my first really, really big job. Like there were lots of sets going on at the same time. I had lots of assistants at the same time, um, and it was yeah, it felt very much like I was stepping up a level, basically. Um I we we had it was a lots of different sets. It was there were there was different room sets with and there were animals as well. Oh my god. Some real debacles with what kind of animals? We had um we had we had some lovely dogs and some lovely rabbits, but we also had birds and we also had butterflies, which do a lot of flying around. Um I'm being very careful with wow, I I talk about this. And we had um a hedgehog, which the wonderful animal handler um who is a real character, um I think I know the one.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

Yeah, there's only one animal handler in London.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

There's only one animal handler in London who is fantastic, but sometimes throws you a curveball, such as getting you a head promising you a hedgehog for a shot that turns up as an albino. So we I wanted a small, we wanted a small garden, English garden, you know, Joe Malone's very English garden, country garden, la la la la. A small English um hedgehog. He bought me a large brown hedgehog and a small albino African hedgehog. And he was like, Well, but you can just merge them together, can't you? And I was like, it's film, it's film, we can't do that. We can't fix that in post. That's not happening. Um, but lo and behold, it I think it was fixed in post in the end. But that was uh there's some curveballs thrown on that one.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Yeah, well, that sounds um, yeah, always the way, but always lessons to be learnt. Yeah. Um, so you're doing amazing things, you're working with Joe Malone, and um I then wondered it's probably around the time of COVID as well, which is quite a prominent time in anybody's career. How did you um how did that show up in your career?

SPEAKER_02 21:55

Oh my goodness. Um, I remember being on that sheet, and I was talking. Talking to the wonderful hairstylist, and he said, It was in the we were shooting it in January, and he said, Oh my goodness, have you heard about this Wu-Hand thing? And he was like, I think it's gonna be quite big. And I was like, Nah, it's gonna be fine.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

And lo and behold, after that, I remember just drop job after job, dropping away, which is terrifying when you are self-employed to then see your calendar just decimate in front of your eyes.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

And it was, I mean, I think it was also that thing of being, you know, tick, tick, tick, my eggs are going. I, you know, there was a there was a timeline in my head, and I was I was on the timeline. I was working really well with that timeline. I was okay, right, we've got some big jobs here now coming in. Amazing. This is gonna launch me. Um, and then I can then do more creative work, and then I can do that again, and then by the time that you know, in a couple of years' time, I can have a baby, I would have bought my house, I would have done this, and it'll all be fine.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Okay, so you were already at that time thinking about having a child and factoring that into your career. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

I mean, I've been thinking about it for a long time. Just how I knew that I wanted a kid, and I knew that I mean, I did, I did a lot of work before getting into even before going to university with was a nanny, I worked in arts education, uh like I worked on play schemes, you know, kind of working with lots of kids, like inner city kids, and doing lots of lots of kind of work with kids. And I knew that I I love kids. I come from a big family of, you know, I'm the oldest cousin of a hundred billion cousins and their children and la la la la. Um, and I knew that I wanted kids, but I knew that I had maybe chosen a pathway that was not particularly stable. And you know, sort of maternity leave is non-existent, really. Absolutely non-existent. Um and I so I was saving from a really early point, and there was a it got to a yeah, I so even even then I had it in the back of my mind at the beginning of COVID, and that was that sort of one of the things that really kind of well, one of the many things that really shook me up was like, how am I gonna do this? Because that money from that shoot supported me for the whole time I wasn't working, and then we were back to square one, and like by the you know, and so uh there's no save that you know, there's no savings, there's no so you start building up again, and yeah, so I needed I needed to be able to afford to support myself paying rent or whatever it would be at that point, um, for a year, and yeah, so it it it hit really hard at that time because yeah, it was a real TikTok moment for me in the TikTok egg club.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Yeah, like absolutely, it feels like you blink and all of a sudden, due to COVID, you'd aged a few years, and you're like, no, but hold on, these are my formative years. How you know, and and I think for many people that were in your position in that stage of their career when they were on the cusp of doing great things, it's very scary to have that taken away and the whole world change. Yes. And in terms of not just the actual world, but industry-wide as well. So it would you it was already in your mind that you wanted kids and to become a mother. So when did you what were you doing in your career when it then happened? Where where are we on the timeline?

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Where are we on the timeline? I so yeah, we did did did the COVID thing, moved to the country, became a witch for a little bit. Love. All on about plants, and that's an absolute sideline of mine. I love it, and actually does inform my work a lot now. Um, but I sort of there's just been a few years of like since COVID as well, like of insecurity within the industry, and there's been like busy pit patches and then not so busy patches. So I think what me and my partner decided was we were gonna do a big holiday. We're like, right, sod it, let's do one big holiday. We've you know, we'd both been working our asses off. We'd never we'd never done a big holiday together. So we went to um Mexico for I mean it was nearly two months? I don't know. Love Mexico. Oh my god, incredible food, tequila, so just everything is amazing in Mexico. And um, yeah, so we we went there and then afterwards we were like, right, okay, we're gonna start trying. I've got polycystic ovaries. I thought that it I've been told, in fact, that for my entire uh reproductive life that it's gonna be very hard for me to get pregnant. Um, so as well as financially preparing for things, I've been I knew that like as soon as I came off the pill when I was God when almost when I turned 30, I knew that I'd I'd need to start like thinking. I wanted to come off it so I would think about it. Took all the herbs. Turns out if you take all the herbs for a long time, and even though you've been told you can't, it was very quick, a lot quicker than I thought was going to happen. So we were still in a one-bedroom flat and still yeah, just very much like, oh no, I haven't quite got all of the things done yet.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

It's like you're never really ready. It's like surprise. Yeah. Um, also, I mean, as a big plant herb advocate myself, I mean, isn't that just incredible? Well, to have eaten, drunk, you know, balanced those hormones.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah, I'm I'm very proud of myself for that actually, because I I you know I've always sort of like struggled with, you know, period and weight and all the things that come from holysistic ovaries, the PCOS. And I sort of like, yeah, I was swimming every day, you know, I was very lucky to live next to London Field Lido. Um, we had the most amazing flat that we'd re we'd rented for 10 years from our lovely socialist landlords who never ever put the rent up, which allowed us to um save money.

SPEAKER_00 29:07

And you just don't get that, do you anymore?

SPEAKER_02 29:09

No, absolutely. So we were very that was a very fortunate thing. And um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

So you so you became pregnant in um quicker than you potentially imagined.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Yes, and and I also want to like it's really hard a bit with that because I know that for a lot of people it isn't that it isn't easy, and I know lots of people are having a really hard time at the moment. And I yeah, I just would like to caveat the just for people who have PCOS, it isn't as bad as they think all the time. Like whether we were lucky, like there's ways, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Yeah, no, absolutely, and I mean I feel like we could go off on a whole massive tangent about the medical system and lies we're told as women. Okay, so you become pregnant, and how was your pregnancy?

SPEAKER_02 30:03

My pregnancy was pretty tough. I Were you working throughout your pregnancy? I started working throughout my pregnancy, um, and then I basically I got well pre what turned out to be prenatal depression. I was very lucky to have my best friend be my midwife. Um, and she I mean I've known Laurie since I was two, three, I think. Um, and she's incredible, and she also was pregnant after I got pregnant as well. So, and she saw me through and she knew me, and she knew that I wasn't right, um, and she sort of like recommended like my eye basically my anxiety started going through the roof, and I started experiencing quite a lot of like just deep all the things that come with deep hormonal fog, uh you know, hormonal changes, like um the brain fog I got beforehand. I also got the um you know, to the point where you'd be standing in the middle of the room and you're not knowing what you're doing, like you don't know, and I couldn't move one I didn't know what to do, like whether to pour the kettle, or there were everything got really sort of built up. And actually, I there are some th I'm I am currently a bit complicated because I'm I'm currently um getting diagnosed for ADHD in the process um because my dad and my sister and my little brother have all got ADHD. Um and apart from talking to sort of professionals, there is uh a chance that like basically often ADHD can come on with big hormonal changes, and there is a is the there there might be a connection with that, um, and that might it maybe it wasn't depression and it was more the the negative sides of ADHD. But I don't with you know diagnosis pending, so I'm not gonna say anything, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

But also like the decision fatigue, right? Oh yeah you're having to yeah, that constant processing and and things going over in your mind and when you lose that ability to do perhaps the simplest things like make a cup of tea.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Yeah, absolutely, and I think also I didn't realise, but I I am a real control freak and I'm a real like I have things planned out, you know, and there's a real surrendering to a physical process that is absolutely beyond your control, like you're there, and uh there's a human being made. It's like you press a button and the machine starts and you're on the machine and you don't know if what it's gonna spur out.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

You know what, it is the most somatic process, and I really feel you when you say that in the fact that you don't wake up one day when you're pregnant and go, Today I'm gonna make a heart. Yeah, your body does it, and I think that is something so that body brain connection is like, yeah, that's like just incredible, but your body knows what to do, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Um and I think it's one of those things where again, especially with having PCOS and not being able in like being able to control things like weight and my emotions or like hormones and or it taking a very long time to control or not to control these, but like even get some kind of predictability on them. I'd almost I'd not even thought about what it feels like to have yeah, your body just completely take over. And I found that the the process of being pregnant just terrifying. I was terrified for the whole time.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Well, uh was there anything in particular you were terrified? Was it over the uncertainty of work or it was more like your body or like yeah, all of it.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Like, I'm not sure whether I was going to like my main the main thing in my head, and I think this is a big part of the anxiety and the spiraling thoughts was I don't know if I can keep this baby alive, like I I'm not physically up to it, or I'm too old, or I'm too large, or I'm too whatever. And I, you know, even though the rational part of my brain is like, you're doing everything, you take all the herbs, you do all the exercise, you do all the things, like I think all the things that society puts on you as like you're not fitting in the box, just really manifested and like bore down on me like a horrible evil thing. Oh, it's all right. It's I'm I'm I'm through it now.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

But yeah, well, through it, and and so but you said you were still working, so did it affect your jobs or you were kind of hiding from it, or you were taking less on, like what what would what was your approach?

SPEAKER_02 35:32

I mean, the luck the good thing about my job is it's fits and starts, so I will be working, you know, sometimes 24 hours a day for a couple of weeks, and then that's it for a month or so, and I had enough energy to hold my shit together for that time, like that, and you know, it would be the in-between times, and actually work has always been a bit of a solace for me anyway, and I do find work a that's where I find me, and where I've found me again since as well, like since having a baby. Um, so I think in the lead up during my pregnancy, it was a real, yeah, the work wasn't the issue, it was almost the times in between that were that was the issue.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Yeah, and then I guess when you are making and creating things, your your focus is on that, right? You don't you're not absolutely internally. Absolutely. And how did you expect motherhood to affect your career?

SPEAKER_02 36:42

I I thought it it would be a negative from from what a lot of people that I have met and have seen from different kinds of backgrounds, particularly with free freelance, particularly working within the fashion industry and the advertising industry, which is a very youth-led industry. Um being a mum has not really been that cool, you know. It's not cool, but we're here to change it. Yeah. And I thought, I was like, well, and that I I really wanted to prep myself. I wanted to get myself in a good place, have enough jobs behind me that you know that were high profile jobs that I could sort of leave, leave behind and they would work for me, you know, kind of. And um I thought that, yeah, basically, I thought it was going to be a disaster. But it's sort of been the opposite in a way.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Um and I just I just want to um say and and share with anyone listening about how you said you wanted to have big jobs behind you. Um, I'm just reading through the big jobs that were behind you, and not to be taken lightly at all. Um, that was working with Stella McCartney, working on a Nike campaign. Um, again, we've got Joan Palone, and also equally a Selfridge's window, which are incredible. And like that is, I mean, that is, I don't know. I feel like that's per perhaps a pinnacle for set designers, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:25

A window. It's a it was a real like little girl fantasy of mine to do Selfridge's Christmas windows, or windows at all, selfages windows at all, and I've done a few now, which is amazing. But the Christmas one particularly was a real like, and I was sort of in the artists featured artist, so I had my name on the window, and it was really amazing.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

Amazing. So you had all of um you had all of those jobs behind you, you know, and you you said you had thought that motherhood would affect your career, perhaps negatively, but what what was the reality of that?

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Well, I mean, it's like I've got I've got to be careful because I don't want to do any gaslighting here because it is hard, you know? And I think I think the reason why I feel very positive about it is that it is hard narrative is sort of really perpetuated now. I think we've gone through a kind of time in history where you're like, oh being a mum's great and everything's nice, and then we've gone through that into it's actually really terrible, it's actually really hard, and maybe you don't like it, and that's okay too. But I think that those a lot of those opinions, whilst have been really helpful, did put the fear of God into me a little bit, like, oh my god, that's it, I'm not gonna be able to work again. And I I think if you've got enough, I'm very lucky to have I was brought up in London, I all my family are in London, I have family around me, and I whereas you know, financially we weren't great well off, you know, not we're not that amazingly well off now, but you know, we don't have much backing behind us, we have an incredible wealth of care and support of trusted people, and that is just that I think that has really shaped my motherhood and allowed me to continue to be creative. I've got these incredible and incredible mum and aunts who are all artists, you know, get the kind of they're all creative people in their own right, printmakers, and they're all retired, and they facilitate me by providing my son with the most incredible care and affection. It takes a village, yeah, literally takes a village, and I I would not be here, I would not be doing this career anymore if it wasn't for them. Like I would have to stop, I would have to get another job because or I'd just have to stop and just pause. I'd be looking after him all the time now. Um, because he's only just gone into nursery, and that's two years of my life.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

Like, yeah, that juggle. So were you working at all or picking up on jobs and looking after him at the same time? How did you like tell me about your Mat Leave and and how long it took for you to start taking work on?

SPEAKER_02 41:35

It was I did I wanted to be able to like that. I wanted to be able to save enough money to be able to kind of enjoy Mat Leave and really enjoy being a mum and learning to be a mum. And you know, I joined, I did such lovely things at Mat Leave. I joined this incredible swimming group I would called um Mama Swim. Shout out to Mama Swim who basically formed my entire social life, and um yeah, everything about three times a week I was going to the pool with Otto. We'd all take our babies and sit around and share stories, and that was an amazing um kind of experience to meet other mums who were from different doing different jobs but also juggling motherhood and work, and um, so I was doing that kind of thing, and then I slowly I'd say probably at about I think I the first job I took on he was maybe four months old or five months old.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Okay, so you're still very much in the trenches at that time.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Yes, so I'd be working from my mum's living room table whilst my mum was looking after Otto, and I'd be doing Zoom calls, um, and she'd take him out into the garden, and then I would be um, you know, just then breastfeeding. I've breastfed on a Zoom, you know, classic, and basically focused a lot of the work at that time. I was doing more kind of consultancy work. I wasn't really doing as much shoot work. I did, I was working with wonderful, wonderful Lisa Eldridge.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Um, and she like helping her remodel her office, which Lisa, sorry to interrupt, Lisa Eldridge is a world-renowned makeup artist.

SPEAKER_02 43:30

Yep. I designed her first sort of physical embodiment of a store, and I've done a couple for her before she sort of like moved into Selfridges and Liberty. And yes, I was working on helping her sort of with creative consultancy with it with her designing her offices and museum within her offices. And then I also was doing some consultancy for Jo Malone as well, which was really good. So, and I had I was doing some, I think I was doing some. Um taking on lots of bits of very computer-based work basically. Um, because mostly my work's very physical and making, and so I was focusing more on the laptop-based stuff.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

Yeah, the stuff that felt manageable at that time. And were you hiding the fact that you were postpartum or you were letting people know? What was your relationship?

SPEAKER_02 44:25

I wanted to from I knew that I wanted to make it very normal that I am a mum and I wasn't gonna hide it. Um, so I was letting people know. And I'm very proud of it as well. Like, I think it's one of those things where I don't know if it, you know, maybe it does put some people off, but now, you know, goodness me, I'm 40 years old. Like, I I don't need to be doing teenager brands or anything like that.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

I and I think if it's putting people off, those aren't the people for you. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's absolutely okay, we can't, not one size fits all.

SPEAKER_02 45:08

Yeah, I think it's uh it's really hard because you get sort of like wrapped up in this, like, oh my god, I need to be relevant and I need to be cool. It's like I do know what it doesn't matter. I want to be creatively fulfilled, and I think the things like particularly within the fashion industry, the opportunities that you get within advertising as well, which is basically what it is, you know, what we're all doing, we're not saving lives here. But you know, the ones the opportunities you get to be really creative are often with cooler brands and things like that. So I think there is something in the back of my mind all the time going, I'm not cool enough. But actually, I you know, creativity, I think once you get past a certain threshold, it doesn't really matter. And uh yeah, like you say, you don't need those, like I don't need to be doing, you know, young people TikTok things anymore.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

I don't want to do that. Um, and but do you feel creatively fulfilled?

SPEAKER_02 46:08

Yeah, I do. I kind of feel like more creatively fulfilled now. I think because I work in a way that's very condensed, and I whereas before I would sort of let a job take over my life, and it would be, you know, kind of working at all hours. Now I'm kind of like right, I have this window. I need to, you know, I have this day, I have this, whatever, whoever, you know, to such a small window of opportunity to get my ideas going that the generation of ideas comes faster now.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Amazing. So that is really motherhood forcing you to change how you work. Yeah, absolutely. And it actually sounds like it's for the better.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

Yeah, I think so. I think it's it's really helped me get a bit a lot more of work-life balance. Um, I mean, it also is like there are times when I like, I can't do this, this is nuts. And you know, your baby's crying as you're walking out the door and you're not gonna see him at bedtime and stuff, but that's not all the time. Like it's I think before the freelance lifestyle didn't suit me, it was very unpredictable, it was very, but and you know, kind of I would let it rule me. Um, because of you know, I learned I learned that you you'd you throw everything into a job and you throw at it and I want to, but whereas now I'm like, okay, this is this period of time. Um again, this is two years on. I don't I it took me a little bit of time to work that out as well, but um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Do you feel like it's getting easier?

SPEAKER_02 47:58

Yeah, I think it is getting easier. I think Otto's getting more dep like the independent and less dependent on me. Um I mean it's still it's still hard when you're aware if you if I have to go away for a weekend or a few days and I know that he's sort of wandering where I am, and and also just you know, I love spending time with him, but I think the knowledge that I'll be doing this for a few days or a week or a couple of weeks, and then I can spend lots of time with him definitely makes me feel better. I don't know how I'd feel with him, but that's the way it's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

Um, but also like that is the beauty of working for yourself and being the master of your own time, yeah, and also actually building your career so you can now pick and choose the jobs that come in that feel right for you, that fit and are aligned with your lifestyle as well.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

Absolutely. I definitely I think I've I definitely before having Otto, I was in a real kind of like I've got to do all the commercial jobs, I've got to earn as much money as possible. And now I'm like, I want to, you know, kind of re-explore who I am as an artist, you know, because I think I I I I studied, I I want to find out again who I am an artist. I am an artist.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

And how how are you gonna do that?

SPEAKER_02 49:34

That is a good question, Sabrina. How am I gonna do that? Um I am I'm gonna do so like I I started off doing a lot of ceramics, sort of I knew just before the pandemic actually, I started doing a ceramics course because I knew that I wanted to make um things for myself and not client-led things and kind of things that were personal to me. And I am obviously have made something that's very personal to me. I've made a wonderful human being. Uh not out of ceramics though. Not out of ceramics, he's a real boy. Um, but I want, yeah, I I think I want to explore that again. And I I'm reading, you know, kind of critical theory again. I've started getting a brain back. Uh very jealous. What are you reading at the moment? Um, I'm reading Caliban and the Rip, which is about uh feminism and capitalism. Uh I could go off on a real deep tangent about that, but um, and um lots of colour theory, and yeah, I'm sort of researching into I'm just sort of drawing all the things together, and um I am very lucky to have an agent who encourages me to produce, like follow my own creativity and not just do kind of um commercial or even just like you know, photography-led stuff.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

And help helps you essentially to fill up your own creative cup before filling up clients' creative cups. Um and I'd love to hear about any superpowers you feel like you have acquired since becoming a mother. I feel like we touched upon time and boundaries, but is there anything else that maybe's even surprised you?

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Oh, superpowers. I I th I mean a focus in some respects, and that's definitely a it's turned into an all or nothing thing. So again, going back to the possible ADHD diagnosis, that might be from from there, but my ability to hyper focus onto things has I I I can really throw myself into a project and it suits that suits me now because I mean to the point where I can shut everything out and have that dedicated time.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Um and that probably also comes from actually being confident about what you're doing and experience and yeah, I think and yeah, I think a confidence I have I think going through I think going through pre and postnatal depression and coming through through that has given me a real confidence and self-assuredness.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Um and you know, I've come out of it, I've done some really big projects after that and done them better than I would have done it before. And that's nuts. That is something I did not expect.

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Um that's something to really be like pat yourself on the back, be just so um, I guess it's always hard to take stock of what you've done in your career, but um, just hearing you talk about you know going through pre-post nasal depression and then doing projects bigger and better than you've ever done before. That's such such an achievement. That's the word I was looking for. I was like, wait, hold on. I'm going round the houses here. What am I doing to say with it? Brain fog, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 53:33

The achievement. I mean, then you have that lovely uh little is it is it is it mumbrain or is it perimenable?

SPEAKER_00 53:42

Who knows? And so what what are you most proud of in your career?

SPEAKER_02 53:48

In my career, the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Oh, I thought you were saying just the whole career. Oh, it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

No, I was saying the whole career. Well, oh yeah. Um I it's really hard to kind of I mean the self-registers windows were a big one. I've done a I've done worked on a really big exhibition, yeah, I think we're talking about it before, um, for of Liberty, for Liberty at the William Morris Gallery. And that has been a real wonderful labour of love. I've and also I've actually I was working part of a team on that one. So working with like an incredible uh 3D designer, like and with an amazing 2D designer, and being able to focus on the kind of conceptual side of things, and then also then we made lots of things in the studio. We made huge, you know, and like a huge soft play area for them. We covered hundreds and hundreds of items of like studio. We made a made a studio setup out of Liberty Print fabric, covered lots of different things, um, worked with the curators, that was wonderful. So iconic. Um I mean it was such a wonderful process and a long job. Like, I don't usually have long projects, so that was this is since having your son.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how how long do you think you worked on it in total? I think it was like nine months or something. Oh, oh, that's a lovely parallel there. So it it it is in line with the other longest projects. Yeah, funny that. Um, and that opened in 2025, so the end of last year. So um yeah, how long is it open until it's open until I think it's open until June. So go there, take your kids. Okay, soft soft play, chic soft play. So love a chic soft play, and also uh there is an exhibition as well. Isn't it so? I mean that that is the main thing.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Okay, the main the main thing is it's so the exhibition is called Women in Print, 150 Years of Women Designers for Liberty. So, and it is incredible, like just seeing these prints and these garments that have this story of I mean, there is you know, there's so many there's like Mary Quant, there's a Mary Quant piece, there's really early, early, like William Morris's daughter, Jane Morris, um, who was like an incredible proponent of the arts and crafts movement. She's got that there's some of her work in that as she worked for Liberty. Um, William Morris has a big connection with Liberty, so it's like going through the archives there and the Liberty Archives was what an experience. Yes, insane privilege.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

Like so wonderful, so definitely a privilege, so iconic and such um yeah, such a special thing to be a part of. So we can see your work at the William Morris Gallery, which is in Morthamstow in northeast London. Where else can we find your work, Scarlett?

SPEAKER_02 57:08

You can find my work um on my website. And what is your or you can find um where else is my work? Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

What's your what what where what is your website? How can I how can people find it? It's scarlet-winter.com. Um do you have Instagram?

SPEAKER_02 57:28

I do have Instagram. It's ScarletWinter underscore set design.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Amazing, wonderful. Well, definitely if you're not um if you're not familiar with Scarlett's work, I'd really, really recommend checking it out. Um thank you so much. It has been such a joy to record one of our conversations this time around and to learn more about your career, the twists and turns. Thank you for being so honest and open about the challenges that you've faced as well. And um, yeah, it's been a real treat.

SPEAKER_02 58:05

So it's been wonderful to share. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 58:08

You're very welcome. Thank you so much for listening to this conversation with Scarlett Winter. I honestly had such a blast sitting down with her. She's so much fun, and I just love how honestly she talks about everything that she experienced and has gone through as a creative and a mother. You'll find links to Scarlett's exhibition at the William Morris Gallery and to her work online in our show notes. And please follow the podcast and leave a quick review if this episode spoke to you. It makes a huge difference and helps more mothers and creatives find these conversations. You have been listening to Mothers of Creativity. I am Sabrina Saal and it's brought to you by Blinkbid Media.