SPEAKER_02 0:08

What happens when the job you love demands everything of you? And then you become a mother? In today's episode of Mothers of Creativity, I'm talking to Ashley Baracormia. She's a fashion director who builds entire world for a clothes but travels around the world for her clients. She styled covers for both and complaints to make a brand. Ashley shares the behind-the-scenes reality of working on top of two data, hunting in production rooms, and recognising and navigating posting to the pressure, all while refusing to dim her a bit room. Ashley really lets us into her world, and this conversation is raw, unfiltered, and a true insight in what it really takes to be both a stylist at the top of their game and a mum at the schoolgate. Hi, Ashley. Welcome to Mothers of Creativity. I am so excited to speak to you. Especially as you are also working, you know, at other magazines, like managing commercial clients, being a mom. Ah, it feels um, it feels a lot. I am so intrigued to find out how you do it all um and what the secrets are. Um but I first wanted to start with, I've been I've been looking over your work and um first of all, it's it is so beautiful and the way you style, there is actually like there is this like undercurrent of like costume drama, but like very wearable, and um I feel like that fits into um you were saying about how you started, uh, you wanted to go to drama school and have that side of things. So I wonder, would you agree that perhaps that kind of drama performance comes out in your styling work?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think for a really long time I was trying to kind of pinpoint, you know, like what my vibe was, what my style was. And I think um, yeah, I always kind of said, Oh, it's quite feminine, but then it has like a little bit of an edge to it. And then I don't know, in the last like year or two, I I completely, I don't know why I never really realized this because every time I'm on set and I'm doing a fitting for an editorial where I can kind of go wild, um, I'm always wanting to build a character. It's always about a character, and I always think and I always used to say, you know, oh, but would she wear would would she wear that shoe again? You know, like it's not just it's not just about the fact that you you're putting her in that dress with that shoe, with that piece of jewelry, you know. I often for a long time was doing, you know, like in a in a full editorial, I'd probably have the girl wearing the same shoe often because I felt like that was her her red thread throughout the entire thing. Like that's her shoe, that's that character's shoe. Um, and and then I realized I was like, well, of course, I'm this is all quite dramatic and it's all quite, yeah, kind of costumey. Um, and it and it absolutely must stem from the theatrics of my childhood. And my mum always used to say to me, Ashley, you were never meant to be on the stage, you know, you as in you were so much more interested in the costumes than anything else. I I mean I don't know if I agree with that, but I I do know that, you know, I would wear the little Red Riding Hood dance costume to the supermarket, and I would, you know, put the most insane things on and and be like, I have to go to daycare in this. And I think most little girls do, but it was like of another level, and it and and my childhood was surrounded by theatre. My sister was a dancer, I was in musical theatre, you know. We my mum really encouraged it because she never had that when she was younger, and so she really kind of yeah, really encouraged us both to be on the stage. Um, and I I definitely feel like my work, and especially in the last few years, where I feel like I've tried to elevate it more and and play with kind of more of the big boys. I I the the the the drama and the theater and and the fun of it is really ever present in my work. And I think there's a lot of people out there who do very good minimal work and very beautiful clean lines and very simple work and deconstructed work, but it just doesn't interest me and my passion. You know, I really want to create something because passion is supposed to be fun and our world is supposed to be fun, and the world is so fucking shit 90% of the time that the the joy you get from looking at a piece of work or imagery, it should make you feel something, it should make you feel happier or or like disgusted, or you it that is what art should do. So, you know, I I want to make something that feels pretty and crazy and and gorgeous, so yeah, it it's definitely a huge inspiration for me is theatre and and drama.

SPEAKER_02 6:23

Yeah, I really, I really love that, and even with your work, most of it being shot on location, and I'm talking about the editorials that I've been looking at for Vogue and Love One, and it's it is pure escapism, and I love that element of fashion where it should be um aspirational, it should it should be like a complete fantasy world, and I think you really you do that really, really well. So I wonder like where did that shift happen? You said about how you wanted to be on the stage. How did you then end up styling?

SPEAKER_00 7:05

So I think I I all I I I mean all through my teen years, the plan was was that I would finish school and I would do all of my auditions for all of the big theatre schools. So that I had done a gap year prior, and I had fallen in love with some surfer bum in Australia, and I just couldn't kind of get it out of my head, and I was I was like my first heartbreak. I was absolutely devastated. And um I came back to the UK and my mum was like, right, you've got to like buckle down, you've got to concentrate now. And I just flopped all my auditions. I was like, I don't want to fucking be here, I want to be back in the surf and I want to be having fun. And I think my mom was really like, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're getting a degree now, or you're doing something with your life. And I think in the background, she could see that I just my heart wasn't in anything at that point. And I think she was like, Well, you've got to enroll into something for September. And she put me onto a um, it was like a foundation design. What's the you get like a foundation diploma? Foundation, yeah. There was like a fast track course at Middlesex University, and it got you instant access onto the Middlesex styling and fashion promotion. I think it was like a fashion promotion and styling degree, and so it but but if you did this diploma, you had instant access into that degree. So, I mean, my my mum was genius, and I so I I did the diploma and I really obviously enjoyed it because I was always arty. Then I did probably like two terms of the styling degree, and then I secretly, I didn't even tell my mum this, um, signed up or like tried to get into a fashion design degree in Australia, and then I transferred over and I went home to Australia mainly because I probably wanted to give shit to this boy that had broken my heart. I ended up, I ended up studying in Australia, and I think I probably knew in the back of my head at the at the time, like this is the stupidest decision. I was in London studying fashion, now I'm in Australia, but I think it was like a personal thing I needed to do as like a 19-year-old moron. And every single summer winter, I would go back to London. My family were all there, and I would go in um and uh intern everywhere. I interned at like Roxander's offices, I interned at like, I don't know, a million magazines. I did an internship for a production company and I continued to go back to them every time I'd have a holiday. And they basically said to me, When you graduate, when you come back to London, there is a job here for you. So when I graduated in Australia, I immediately left and went into production. And I was a producer for probably two years, and I'm I hated it because I didn't want to be a producer, and I always I was like at that point, I had done my degree and I was like, styling is the thing, this is what I want to do. I absolutely wanted to do this, and I did the production, and I'm so so glad I did it. And I feel like every single styling assistant needs to do some sort of production before they get into assisting.

SPEAKER_02 10:32

You know what? I I totally agree with you. As uh as an ex-shute producer myself, the stylists that I have worked with that have got experience in production are just like next level. It's so so key. Just it just helps you learn your craft.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Oh my god, I think the thing is your organizational skills are just another level, and I think it's really important to know the hierarchy of who is on set. I think it's super important, you know. Like there are so many of this younger generation who come up and and they just don't have a clue and they don't care. And I I think it it there's so much to be said for an assistant who knows when they should be going to the catering table. Like, I I I I've maybe I'm a little bit of the back end of the old school world, but I I think it's super important. It's really, really important to know, to know who you and and also obviously because I was a producer, I always felt like God, producer the producers are the first person to be blamed about something and the last person to be thanked. So I'm always so appreciative of every producer that I've got on set with me because I'm just like, oh my god, I know how much you're doing behind the scenes. And I I I mean everybody's doing a million things behind the scenes that nobody knows about, but your appreciation of everybody becomes so huge when you're working in production because you know what's going on behind the scenes. Um but yeah, so I I worked in production and I think the woman that I was working with knew that she was gonna lose me because I just I really I you know I had no desire to be there. Um and I think it was towards the end of that two years I would speak to I I was testing, I was doing lots of like crap work, but you know, just trying to get my pictures somewhere, and you know, just online publications and stuff. And obviously I'd been having conversations with model agents from being a producer, and I'd been out with people and told them what I wanted to do. And I don't know if you remember FM Models. Ash Moseley was at FM and was it FM? Is that what it was called? I kind of so long ago. Um, and Ash sent me a message and said, There's this stylist called Poppy Kane, and she's just put an advert out on Facebook, and she's looking for an assistant in New York in like a week, and I was like, Oh my god, so instantly message Poppy, and she was like, Oh, I would love to have you, but it's in New York, and it's for Marc Jacobs. Um, but they're I'm looking for like a local New York assistant, and I spoke to my mum, and my mum's like, go, go, here's some money for a ticket, go, I'll pay for like the first night of accommodation. I'd never been to New York before, had no idea. I had met some like set designer on set the week before who lived in New York, who I'd messaged, and he was like, Yeah, you can stay in my place in like Bushwick or something. And so I I flew myself to New York. I basically said to Poppy, I'll do it, like it doesn't matter that I'm not in New York. And I worked with her for like maybe it was like four days or something. It was like a Marc Jacobs um, I can't even remember what it was, campaign thing. And it was in the Marc Jacobs offices. It was so amazing for me. Like it just, I think I just was like, oh my god, this is New York, this is crazy. And um, and then I continued working with Poppy for like on and off for probably like three or four years. Uh, and then at the same time, I was working with Julia Sargenoir, and then I was working with Tom Guinness for a while, and then I also was like in and out working with a guy called Stevie Westgarth. Um, and and then towards the end, and I I assisted for probably six or seven years, and then towards the end, I was ready to go. I was like, I'm done. And I had a really brief stint at Lula magazine. I was assisting Anna Foster, and um and I think I had gone to Lula thinking that Leith Clark was there because I loved Leith's aesthetic and realized that she wasn't there anymore, worked with Anna, who was gorgeous and great, and then and then I happened to be asked to do a Harper's Bazaar job with Leith, and Leith and I got along, and she basically said, Come and work with me at Violet Book, I'll give you a title, come and assist me. And I was like, Oh, I'm just about to leave, like I'm kind of done. And anyway, I ended up working with her probably for another year, and then when I left, I was like, Look, I still want to be part of the magazine, and she was like, That's absolutely fine, and go do your thing, and you can still have a title at the magazine, and then I've just continued to work my way through the magazine over the past, I don't know how many years, like so many, like over like 10 over 10 years, probably. No, I mean, how long have my husband and I have been together? Because we met on a violet book shoot. Um I love that an onset romance. Yeah, my daughter's middle name is Violet because it was a violent. And my son's middle name is blue because we were shooting in a bluebell field. Oh um, but uh yeah, for probably over maybe like nine years I've been a violet book, so I feel like I'm part of the furniture. But um, but yeah, that that's kind of the journey, and then and then yeah, I just went out on my own and did the thing that everyone does when they leave and worked at ASOS for ages and was getting paid crap and you know doing horrible e-com and um and yeah, and then just started doing my own thing and did you were you you said you felt ready to leave assisting.

SPEAKER_02 16:37

Was there like anything in particular that kind of gave you that feeling of like now is my time? I've you know, perhaps it's like I've learned everything I've needed to learn. I mean, you're working with top name stylists, so you're working at such a great level.

SPEAKER_01 16:52

Yeah. Um, I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

I think I think I probably was getting pretty like pissed off about things, and I I think I was probably ready to I think because while I was assisting, the entire time that I assisted, I continued to test and do my own things. So, you know, I know a lot of assistants who don't really have that desire to do that kind of thing, they just kind of want to assist at that time. But I think in the back of my head, I really wanted to do it on my own. I just knew that I needed to assist beforehand, and I didn't kind of know how to get in and what were the moves to make or the political moves to make. And I to be honest with you, I feel like only in the past like five years have I understood the politics behind it, and like you you should only shoot for certain people, and you should only do you know, I I I never really knew that. I always was kind of like, I just want to make some pretty pictures and play with nice clothes. Um, so I I don't I'm I would have just had that fire in my belly the entire time, and I probably just got to a point where I was like, I'm about to hit 30, I need to do something and be out on my own and take the leap.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Yeah, I mean it sounds like you're insanely driven, even that thought of like going back to the university and being like, right, I want to be back in Australia, how can I make that happen? You know, you're someone that's like, okay, if I want to do something, I'm gonna just make it happen. Yeah, I yeah. I think is so good, you know, even like, okay, let's jump on a plane, let's get to New York, like we are doing this.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

Yeah, I mean, there's that I I I really if I want something, I'm gonna do everything in my fucking power to make it happen. Like I really, I'm a bit of a dog with a bone. I I really don't yeah, I won't stop until I have what I really want. So there is a there is a big drive in me of that massively, and I'm really competitive and I'm really competitive against myself. Like I'm my own worst enemy. I just I just want to do the best that I can do all the time, all the time.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Yeah, which is which is good. I always say though, if you're in competition with yourself, will you ever win? Never, never. I never will, ever.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

I kind of like that because then I'll just keep pushing.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Yeah, keep pushing. And so I'm so intrigued. How did that drive adapt or change um when motherhood came along? Tell me, tell me about where you were in your your career when you became a mother.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Um, I think when I became a mum, I I think that was that moment where I started working with people who made me be aware of the the moves that you make are really important. And I started a very important relationship with a very, very dear friend of mine, Ina, who was Lekowitz, which is now Levy. She she made me realize that you, you know, you can say no to things and you should say no to things, and you should cull things from your book, and you should, you know, edit things in a you know, before I was just like, oh, let's just do every you know, I didn't really understand the importance of editing or the importance of what you put out there. Um, and so I think at that time that started all happening. I started working with Vogue a little bit, um, and now work with them all the time. Um but I was probably in a point in my career where I was going from being uber feminine to probably being a bit more refined and a bit more elevated, where where the in the last five years that's kind of where I've been moving into that space of pushing it a bit more and making it feel yeah, just try trying to go to a higher level. And that all it all kind of kind of coincided when I became a mum.

SPEAKER_02 21:08

Okay, so I'm so intrigued about this. Like, tell me more, what what happened?

SPEAKER_00 21:14

So I I think when I had my daughter, um I unfortunately I had postnatal depression after I'd had her, and I had I think the problem with me is I have hugely un unrealistic expectations of so many things in life, but I definitely had very unrealistic expectations of being a mother, and I think I assumed that I kind of had it in the bag, and I'd been an auntie many times over, and everybody who is a mum knows that when it's actually your child, it's very, very different to looking after somebody else's child. You know, you don't know what happened. Happens behind closed doors in the middle of the night, you know, for your friends or your family. Um, and so I really went into it cocky and was like, oh, I've got this. I'm I'm I'm I've I'm gonna absolutely nail this, and I just didn't. And so motherhood really kicked me in the arse for sure. So my first foray into motherhood really, really affected me because I obviously wasn't what I had imagined, what I had imagined at all. It was like really it was just not it, and so it was really shit. It was really, really shit. And I don't think I realized how shit it was until and I still look back at that time and I think, oh my god, I was so so lost. And I think so many other people saw it and were kind of holding their hand out to help. Um, but I how long do you think that lasted for?

SPEAKER_02 22:58

How long do you think you were lost for?

SPEAKER_00 23:00

I mean, I think from the very beginning, I think there were real signs. My mum was very on it. I think I I I I I think even from I I had a the birth that I had was not the birth that I wanted or expected, or you know, I went into um into my birth plan, and they were I remember being in one of those NCT classes, and they were saying, you know, make sure that you have a um open idea of what your birth will be like. And I was like, no, this is the birth I want, that's the birth I'm gonna get. And I think for me, somebody who's so kind of driven all the time and and usually I try to push to get what I want. When I didn't, I was fucking fuming. And I was also really shocked. Like, hold on, this is something I can't control? Like what? And I was really disappointed in myself. I I I've really felt like I'd made it a sport, and I had I really said to myself I'd failed. I had totally failed at childbirth because it had not been what I wanted to be. And I like want to take myself and cuddle myself for those thoughts because that's so sad. But I I truly felt so disappointed in myself, and so I couldn't even come away from birth thinking, oh, I have this gorgeous, healthy little baby girl that I've wanted for so long. I just sat in this space of being disappointed in myself for not doing it the way that I felt like I should have done it. Um, and then um my you know, I cried and cried and cried, and I think people were like, Oh, is this like post is this like baby blues? And then I remember probably six months down the line bathing my daughter and kind of looking at her and thinking, I don't feel anything here, like I really feel like I'm just bathing a baby, and I think that's when I probably was like, shit, this is really bad. And I think even before then, I had started talking therapies because I think my husband and my mum, and and this is a time of COVID, and my mum was over from Australia, she'd got stuck with us, so she was really with us in the trenches like for months, so she saw everything, and I'm very close to my mum. Um, and so they had put me in talking therapies, and and and that was obviously really helping. I don't think I really, really truly got out of it until I had my son two years later. Wow, um, I think after a year the the load lightened a lot and it was fine, um, but I don't think I got back to a space, and I think my son kind of reset me because then when I and it makes me really sad because when I had my daughter, I was always like having a newborn sucks, it's so miserable, it's just so shit. I don't understand any of these mums who are like, Oh, it's so beautiful and milky cuddles, and I was just so like, oh, you're all talking out your ass. This is bullshit, like somebody's got some sort of conspiracy, and you're all just lying. And then when I had my son, I was like, Oh, I didn't have postnatal depression with him, and I was like, Oh no, this is what they're all talking about. It can happen, and it is really gorgeous, and I think he just he was a very good baby. My daughter was quite difficult, but I really truly, and people say this to me all the time, Ashley, you've got to stop guilting and blaming yourself. But I feel like children really kind of run off your own energy, and I think my daughter probably ran off my energy, and she was quite a difficult sleeper, and she was a little bit of a difficult baby. Whereas my son was very easy, very good sleeper, all you know, like all of the but above, and so he just made me realize actually having children is wonderful, and what a lucky thing to be a parent of two healthy children, and you know, so it he really changed my mind and he made me be a lot easier on my daughter. He it just it yeah, it all kind of came back round when I then had him.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

That's that is so powerful, and thank you for sharing that. And I think there is yeah, people aren't always honest. Like, I will hold my hands up and I will even say to my girlfriends, like, actually having a newborn, like I love my daughter, but like it can be boring at times. Wow, like can we just like normalize that it's boring? Okay, like I'm putting it out there, and then when they start becoming tiny humans, that's when it gets um it gets fun and and more interesting. So you the the age gap, there's uh uh two years between your daughter and your son. And so bearing in mind you were saying that your your son, you know, reset you. Were you working in between those two years? What was happening in your career? You mentioned also it was COVID, so that adds a fun dimension onto things.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Yeah, so well, when I had my daughter, I think I really I really leaned into doing nothing, and because there was nothing to do, and it was actually a really magical moment. I loved being pregnant with her because we couldn't work, we couldn't do anything, everybody else wasn't working, so I wasn't feeling like, oh my god, that person got that job and I didn't get it. There was none of that, so it was really gorgeous. Um, but then towards the end of me being pregnant with her, we must have been shooting again because I worked up until I gave birth. I was on set on my due day and I was like lugging like 30 kilo suitcase, like I'm mental. I was really physically, you know, this job is very physical, and lots of people don't understand how physical it is. But I was like, and I won't accept help from anybody. That's how I met my husband when we were on set. I'm lugging out all these suitcases, and he's like, he was a photographer assistant at the time, and he was like, Can I help you? And I'm like, No, I've got this, thank you very much. I can do it myself.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Strong independent female.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Yeah, just so annoying though. Um, but so I was working with my daughter, uh, yeah, on and I remember I went to set that day with the hospital bag in the boot of the car because I was like, if I go into labor, I've got the hospital bag here. Um, and then you know, everything opened up. Then with my daughter, and I was back on set. We were shooting a preen campaign. Um, she was like eight weeks old, I think. And I think with my daughter it was very different because I was kind of not escaping. I it was more that because I still felt all the anxieties of leaving my child, and even though I probably didn't feel like I had a connection that would be kind of what we would say more natural, she was still my tiny little baby and was being, you know, solely breastfed, and it it was very scary and daunting to leave a baby, but I I would go because I was like, I really love my job, I really want to do these things, these opportunities are starting to come in for me, and I don't want to say no to them, I want to say yes to everything. And you know, we spoke about it briefly at the beginning that I think it's super important to be available all the time as a as anybody, but you feel the pressure even more when you're a mum because you're like, I I could just be like, Oh, I can't do it because nobody can look after my child, but I really pushed myself to say yes to everything. Um, and you know, I would bring my mum to set with the baby, or she had nannies from the very beginning, and we would bring the baby to set where as much as possible, and I would, you know, I'd be pumping with like a portable pump and or I'd be running off and feeding her. Um, and then with my son, I did the exact same thing. I worked up until my due date, and then I was on set for an Amazon fashion job, I think eight weeks after he was born. And that one was like a long job, it was like a week or something, and I just remember it being so awe-consuming with pumping, and you know, just uh I think and and the like the idea of like having to pump so much before I left for that job in prep for him. Um, and I never had that much milk, so I was just like this poor, like you know, just being drained the life out of me. And I just I think pumping is so depressing. Oh my god, it's so pouring. It's I think it's really I I what like my best friend's just had a baby and I watched her the other day, and she's just like she has so much milk, and I'm like, I never had this much fucking milk. I would sit with like an industrial like pump next to me at 9 p.m. every night and get like one fucking teaspoon. I'm like, oh my god, I've been here for an hour. It was so depressing, and I would know that I'd have to do that because I'd go to work like a a week later and I would need all this supply. It's so depressing.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

So how did uh clients react to you bringing your mum on set, pumping, like how like were they accommodating to it? Did you feel comfortable enough to do that?

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Yeah, I think I um I always you know, it's super important to read the room, you know. Like if it's a client I'd never worked with before and you know, it just I just wouldn't even do you know, I would never bring my child to set. And I still now there is, you know, I probably wouldn't even tell them I had a kid or unless that came up into conversation. Um, but if it's like an editorial or if it's a job with somebody that I know really well, I would say to them, you know, I've just had a baby, can I bring and you know, they they were always, I never, I don't think I ever had any backlash from anybody. And I'm sure there was a point where I was working in like for freelance art direction for Bowden, and I, you know, would have those portable pumps on and they would leak everywhere, and I would be in a grey shirt and be like, Oh, sorry, you know. I luckily I'm not the kind of person who gives a shit, so it's not a problem for me, and I feel comfortable with everything. So um I don't think that that was ever really an issue. Maybe people were looking at me, but I don't give a fuck, so whatever.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Yeah, I feel like when you're in that mindset, you just don't care, right? The most important thing is like, well, I need to feed my baby, I need to feed my child, you know. So like I just do whatever, um, whatever it takes. And so, you know, you've mentioned about how you feel like your you know career really like stepped up a pace when you became a mum. Like, do you think motherhood forced you to reevaluate your pace or your ambition at all?

SPEAKER_00 34:21

Look, I think this is in this is like a two-part answer, whereby the slowing down thing is uh it's like a new battle. I have not a battle, a new goal for me of trying to sit in the moment more because I'm very aware that my children are of an age now where they're really exciting, you know, they have personal how old is your baby? She's 16 months, so she's a baby baby.

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Yeah, yeah. She's uh I I like to call her a toddler now that she's walking. But yeah, no, no, no. In my it's it is very funny because in my mind I'm like, no, but she's basically a teenager, and then when I meet mums that have got kids that are older, they're like, no, she's a baby, and I'm like, no, she's basically a teenager, but no, I totally know.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

But it's so funny, it's like your perspective on these things. Like my daughter, when I see her, I'm like, oh, you're so big. And then when I see her come out of school with all the other kids, I see the whole line of the kids come out, and I'm like, oh, that's not my daughter's year, those are tiny little babies. And then I see her in the line and I'm like, oh my god, you're one of those babies. I thought you were basically a teenager. Um, so I think the kids are of an age now where they're they're really, really their personalities are really there. And I mean, my son only has kind of just got there at three. Um, but I don't want to miss anything, and it moves so quickly, it's really moving very, very rapidly. And I our industry is so fast-paced, and you know, I'm traveling all the time, and sometimes I'm away for real, you know, I'm about to go do like pretty much travel for about three and a half weeks now, and it's probably the longest time I've been away from the kids, and that stuff is, you know, I'm sitting here going, I really need to slow down, and then I'm just speeding up everything. Um, but I'm so conscious I'd like there to be a balance between my life and my personal, my work life and my personal life. But it's really hard. It's hard to say no to things, it's hard to because there's like 25 other people right behind you who'll snap your job up very quickly, and then a client will love them and continue to work with them. So it's really hard to slow down, and especially when you're getting opportunities thrown at you, it's hard to knock them back because my job is really important to me, and I really, really love it, and I'm really proud of how hard I work at my job that I don't want to say no to things, so that balance thing is a new thing that I'm really trying to work out, and I think even it's like the thing of um to not be on my phone or not be on my computer around them and give them all of me when I do have them. And then the other thing I think is the the the ambition thing of like what I was just saying a minute ago about not saying no to, you know, like you kind of have to say yes to things and you have to be like we said this at the beginning about you know, but being available is super important as a mum, but to to be to have a seat at the table, to even be considered. And I think I could so easily be like, oh, I I I can't, I can't because my husband has got something else to do. But thank god I have a husband who's like my biggest, he's like the the pusher, you know. A job option comes in, and I kind of go, I just don't think I can be away from the kids for that long, it's not fair to them. He's like, go, you must go. This is such a good opportunity for you. Go and do it. You know, he's so fantastic at pushing me and and and being like, I don't know, I don't know what the word is. He's just it's so good to have that support behind me.

SPEAKER_02 38:34

I think, yeah, having that support, having a cheerleader, having um, you said your husband's a photographer, so having somebody within the industry that also gets it and also like understands the nuances of the industry, and you know, having to say yes to as many jobs as possible, um, and like being able to like weigh up the decisions, like what's worth doing and what's not worth doing.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

You know, a lot of the times our jobs can be really fun, and you're going out for dinners and you're going to go see amazing places and travel in amazing places, and some people see that on the surface and they're like, What are you even doing? Are you even working? And he knows, he really knows what is behind all of that work, and that actually it's probably like a 3 a.m. start and a 8 p.m. finish, and uh, you know, you have been on your feet all day long, and you know, he he totally gets it, so yeah, no, thank God. Thank god he's just amazing that I have that for sure.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

And it sounds like he really contributes to helping you make it work as a stylist. Do you think you've got any experiences or learn maybe what doesn't work, juggling career and motherhood?

SPEAKER_00 39:56

I mean, look, I the mum guilt is so real. I mean, I I who knows whether I'm doing it right or not, or who knows if anyone's doing it right. My mum always says to me, whenever I kind of give her shit about how she raised us or whatever, she always says to me, um, you know, I did the best I could with what I had at the time. And I mean, I always kind of thought that was a bit of a cop out of a comment, but actually, I think she's really right. Like, I'm just doing the best that I can possibly do at this point in time, and maybe everything I'm doing is wrong. Maybe by traveling, you know, I I I do get kind of a bit of shade from some people who are like, Well, you you really should be at home because you have been away a lot recently, you know. Like, don't your kids need like some kind of stability? And I'm a bit like, well, you know, I'm really lucky with my job where I might have three weeks where I don't work, you know, like the moment I'm in right now, I've had two and a half weeks. I was I was on a job overseas. I came back, I had two and a half weeks of solid, no work, nothing happening. And I have been totally consumed with my children, you know. I have been there for every pickup, every drop-off, I'm making every lunch, I'm making every dinner, I am there, I'm putting them to bed every single night, and then I'm now gonna go away for three and a half weeks and not see them for the entire time. But I think to myself, there are lots of women who have to work 8 a.m. or 9 a.m. until 6, 7 p.m. They don't see their kids in the morning and they don't see them in the evening, and that's every single day. They see them on the weekend, and I'm like, mine's just a weird outlay of time. So so sometimes I'm like, maybe it's wrong, maybe I shouldn't be away from the kids for that long, but it's what you know, it's what our world is, and we just kind of are just trying to make it work and and be present parents and be good.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

I don't know, and I feel I feel like you'll know if it's not working, right? But it sounds like in your world and in your space, as you said, like you're doing the best, and it sounds like, hey, you know, it's going well, you're getting booked, kids are happy, they're healthy, like what more does anybody want, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure there's so many things I can pull apart.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Um, but that's your competitiveness. That's probably you just digging in and being competitive against yourself. Um when I when I look over your work, as I said, you know, you're a vote contributor, you're now fashion director, you've shot Lara Stone, you've shot with Isabel Moran, Telegraph Luxury cover. I mean, you've done so, so many amazing things. I would just love to know what you are most proud of in your career since becoming a mother.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

I think, I mean, it's always gonna be a Vogue cover, isn't it? It's like, I don't know, it's the I did a shoot the other day with a photographer, and you can get kind of quite um, you can get kind of blasé about everything, can't you? Where by I traveled to the we were shooting in Thailand the other day, and you know, in these amazing locations, and you're I was with my assistant, and I could tell she was just like, Oh my god, this is amazing. And then I'm like, oh my god, that's me in New York, you know, 12 years ago or however long ago was with like Poppy just being like, Oh my god, this is so incredible. Um, and I think I was speaking to the photographer on that shoot, and he was saying to me, I really want a Vogue cover, I really you know, and this is a really great. Photographer, established photographer, you know, fantastic work. It's like a you know, it's my dream, and then I was like, I I you know, I I I'm doing that and I've done that, and you know, I I'd love a British Vogue, but that's probably not gonna happen for me. But that that I think I'm very, very proud of that. That feels really, really special to me. And I feel I'm feel really glad that I've had the opportunity to have a cover for Vogue, an international Vogue. It's really, it's really, really great. I think that's yeah, yeah, feels great.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

Yeah. Very proud about it. Yeah, and if you're you know, hopefully your children will listen to this episode one day, what do you like? What do you hope they hear from this episode? What do you hope they hear from this conversation that we have?

SPEAKER_00 44:47

Um, I hope I hope they hear that, you know, I don't know, I I'm doing everything that I'm doing because not necessarily, you know, I'm doing everything that I'm doing for them in terms of financially for sure, because I want to provide everything I can provide for them, but I'm also really doing this for me so that they see that their mum loves what she does and she's passionate about something, and because I really, really, really fucking love doing what I do, and I don't want to do anything else, and I literally live and breathe and eat this shit up, or you know, I just sorry, my language is so bad.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

So bad, um, my mother will be mortified. I I it's so all-consuming for me, and I I want them to see that there is something you can be really passionate about, and I think having passion for something is really sexy, and it's really it's a great thing to have, and it's a quality that I want them to, I want them to have a passion for something. Um, so I hope that they listen to this and hear that I love doing something and I'm doing everything in my power to make it happen, and I hope that they become kids who who are striving for the best that they can strive for as well. You know, I yeah, I and yeah, and that I love them dearly, obviously. That goes without saying.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

Of course, of course. Well, I mean, I think from everything you've shared today, like your drive, your tenacity, your energy is, you know, high level. And I'm sure that they find that incredibly inspiring and will definitely soak that all up. And I'm just so intrigued. Uh um, I want to know like how they, you know, how they turn up or follow them or I know, I know it's not interesting. Yeah, it's like the effect, the nurture that we have on our kids and what they um take on. So Ashley, we've spoken a lot about your work. I would love to know where can people find your work?

SPEAKER_00 47:07

Um, oh god, anywhere. Become models.com on Instagram. Where what's your what's your Instagram handle? Oh, it is Ashley. I have the most annoying name in the world, but I married a man and I was like, oh my god, I love his last name. I'm taking that, and now every single time I have to spell it out, I'm just like, oh my god, what did I do? Um, so it's at Ashley A-S-H-L-E-E Barrett B-A-R-R-E-D-T Bormia B-O-U-R-M-I-E-R. That's my Instagram handle. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Yeah, well, we'll definitely put a link to that in the show notes um for perhaps anyone dyslexic listening and finding that hard to write that down. And do you have a website as well?

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Yeah, I think it's just Ashley Barackbormia.com.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

Okay, perfect.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

So people it's it's really hard. I don't actually update it all that often. So my models.com page has probably got the most recent stuff on it because everything moves so quickly now.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

Yeah, and I like that. I like the um yeah, nod to models.com. Like, yeah, absolutely. I kind of feel like that's such a great resource. So um thank you so much, Ashley. I've thoroughly enjoyed speaking with you today and chatting all things, career motherhood. You've been, yeah, you've been a real joy to speak to. So thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening to this conversation with Ashley. We've heard what it really looks like to chase a fiercely competitive and creative career while dealing with the madness and very real world of family life. There is no denying Ashley's love for her job and her kids. I feel it's so rare that someone talks so openly about how driven and ambitious they are. It's seriously infectious and inspiring. Please follow the podcast and leave a quick review of this episode's book. It makes a huge difference and helps more mothers and creatives find these conversations. You've been listening to Mothers of Creativity. I'm Sabrina Stall, Creative Business Advisor and Artist Manager, and it's brought to you by Blinkbed Media.