SPEAKER_01 0:10

What happens when a piece of advice from an agent you're looking to get represented by accidentally sets the cause for the rest of your career? In this episode of Mothers of Creativity, I'm the photographer Florence Mann's home in London. Formerly a stylist, working under her birth name Titia Malicia. Florence has gone on to photograph everyone, from documenting girls in her personal projects to musician Olivia Dean, who's one of the biggest names in music right now. It's the idea of transformation itself. Florence opens up about the changes that came with becoming a mother twice over. The year with her first child that she now recognises as postpartum depression, and how picking up a camera in those precious nap times became the thing that saved her. I am sat in the most adorable um kids' bedroom with Florence Mann, who is a photographer, and she's very kindly invited me into her beautiful home in East London to talk about her career and how being a mother has evolved that. And you actually went by Letitia Minesia, and you're a stylist. So a complete transformation. Whereabouts in your career were you at that point? And um yeah, I'd love to hear then how you transformed and what led you to transform.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Um hi Sabrina is really nice to be with you here today. Um yeah, so I was born as uh Letitia Manissier, which is my civil name, and I was uh formerly a stylist, so working in the fashion industry, and after years of doing it, I was starting to lose the passion for it, and I was leaning more towards photography, but I was unsure if it would be sustainable to do such a big change of career, so I was a bit in between and thinking about it, and the change of name happened in quite a practical way, in a way. So after I had my first child, um I was contacted by email by an agent who wanted to sign me as a stylist. So I met her, she was very interested in signing me. But I was already I was already doing a bit of photography, so I expressed that to her because I wanted to be transparent. And she said, Oh, it's really not a problem. We actually have a girl that I used to represent who was a stylist before who turned into a photographer, and that's really not a problem to me. You should continue, except you should change name because it can get quite confusing for clients those days. They won't know if you're a photographer or a stylist, so just find another name and just separate your social account and you will be fine. So I thought, oh okay, well, I need to find a name then. So I took Florence, which is my needle name, and mine is just the short version of my long, impronounceable French name. Um, so yeah, that's how it started. Um, but the funny thing is, this woman then ghosted me and never signed me, so I could have not changed my name. Ouch!

SPEAKER_01 4:05

But so interesting to hear that story and like on a whim to think, like, okay, I'm gonna go through a complete rebrand. And were there were there any hesitations about doing doing a bit of a rebrand?

SPEAKER_00 4:22

Uh no, it was actually quite a nice fresh start. Um, I never really hid it to that it was not my name because because being in the same industry, I still work with people. I used to work as a stylist, so sometimes when I'm on set, some people will call me Florence and some people will call me Letitia, and now I respond to both really naturally, and it's really not a problem for me. And I will never ask people like, oh, you need to call me Florence, and my friends will call me Letitia, my my family as well. Um, but it's interesting how some people, even if they know it's not my name, uh they still they just see me as Florence, and that's how they want to call me.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

And do you think Florence is a different character to Letitia?

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Um I don't know. Maybe it's an extent an extension. I think it's just almost like a softer name, and uh I find it a bit more poetic, and I quite like it actually now. I don't like being called Flo, but Florence, I really I really like it.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Yeah, I feel like you're a Florence, not a Flo. Yeah. Um very chic, elegant French. Oh, thank you. Very, very Florence. Um, and we were chatting about beforehand, you know, that transformation, um, because that comes up so much in your work, and I just find it's such an interesting parallel. Um, if you're not familiar with Florence's work, she um has photographed a lot of women that are pregnant, a lot of kids, the like like there is such a um a spirit about your photography work, and um yeah, I I'd love to hear more about what you find enjoyable about photographing women at different periods of their life.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Um yeah, I was just thinking actually uh to bounce um on the change of name. I think it was also a chance for me to because it's really revealing being an artist and showing your own work. It's like being a cook or a dancer, what you show of yourself is so personal, and in a way having a different name was a bit of a mask to start with. So for me it was a bit of easier way to be less revealing, I think. Um, but now I fully embrace the identity, and um I'm happy I'm both really, and that's great.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah, and and actually, but uh jumping into that, it's probably potentially it's a little bit easier to sell yourself as an artist by having that identity because it's one step removed.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Yeah, I guess so. Um it's it still feels really me, and I'm not another identity, but in the same time, um Florence is the photographer, and um um but I'm both really. Uh but yeah, but the transformation and the the growth as a woman, I think um one of my key themes in my work is always been women, um, but in a wide way, as I told you in uh in previously um I love photographing women from different age. Um from teenage I take a lot of inspiration from my teenage years in south of France, something I come back a lot to, what I was thinking at the time, who were my friends, the music I was listening to, and all the girls surrounding me. I go back to that a lot. Um, so it's a bit of a lot of nostalgia and a bit of a 90s era in my work, but then becoming a mother has been such a big transformation for me, and it's interesting because in French, I don't know if it's a word that we can translate, but there is a world called matrescence, which is the motherhood of adolescents. I mean, basically, is to say when you become a mother, it's the same transformation of what you become from childhood to adulthood, um, except it's through motherhood. And um it became it was a really deep transformation for me. Um, because I became pregnant when I was 29, and none of my friends had kids at the time. I had I had no idea what I was doing. I knew I wanted to be a mother and I wanted a child very strongly. But I remember just asking, what do I even need? Like what does a baby need? I was very, very clueless, and I feel it was yeah, just a strong transformation from um the pregnancy and then when you uh become a mother, I felt like I felt for a while that I was just a woman with a baby carrying around. Uh I never had any attachment issue, but yeah, the fact of becoming a woman is a long journey.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

It really is a long journey. I love that you bring up matrescence. I don't know if you've read the book by Lucy Jones called Matrescence, which um I have started. Um it's quite heavy, it's about her journey and exploring um her world that goes from you know being a woman, walking around, getting pregnant, and yeah, there is that deep, deep transformation that does happen. And so um obviously like that deep transformation happened um, you know, with your work as well. What do you think inspired you to pick up a camera then?

SPEAKER_00 9:58

I think I always love taking pictures. Um I remember, I mean, I I guess everybody takes pictures those days with the phone, it's really easy, but even when I was studying, I remember I felt I left an apartment that I really like, which was under the roof, really tiny, and um I felt the need to photograph a friend of mine that I really loved the look of in this place before leaving. So I always had a bit of a call for photography. After that, I would take some still life with just like some Polaroids, and it was it was different to what I do now, but there was still like very strong colours, flowers, a same kind of very classic uh way of framing, I guess. And uh so this desire was growing in me when I was doing styling and I was doing it a bit aside, and one day I decided that I wanted to do uh ghosts with a girl because I already had all the relationship with the agencies. It was actually quite easy to get a model uh to come in, and she came in and I was so intimidated. It was really scary. When you're not doing photography, you think it's really easy to pick up a camera and to take pictures of someone, but actually it's really taking something from the person as well as revealing yourself, so it's a lot harder than it seems. Um it takes a lot of practice to be confident. I mean, it was in my case at least. So yeah, I just took some photographs of this girl and I was so scared and I was so intimidated. She was really nice and she was really relaxed. I there was no reason for me to be so scared, but I just was. And then funnily enough, um I was styling a big shoot, a big editorial for a magazine. I said a big one because the concept required so much clothes. The idea um was to shoot some teenage girls, the theme remained uh, I mean started already when I was a stylist, and they were all dressed in one color and each double spread was one colour, which meant in terms of stylists, I had to get like hundreds of clothes in to get the same who of each colour. And actually, maybe I should take pictures of the clothes that I'm not gonna use for this editorial I'm styling. Uh because like this, you know, it's a win-win for everybody. The brands will be happy, it will be my first shoot. And I got uh I made a quick mood board, sent it to Metal Magazine, they were keen to commission it for online, and I just did it. And it was amazing, it was a beautiful moment, and also I was able to work with uh makeup artists and hairstylists that I was working with as a stylist, and I felt really grateful because these people I knew for a very long time I had no work to show, and that said, Yes, sure, we come to help you for that shirt. Um, so it was a really nice moment, and I still like this those pictures because it was my first proper editorial.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Yeah, first proper editorial, and also so lovely to hear about the people in your network supporting you and absolutely and uh there is real value to that.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

I think I really value um the teamwork in my practice. I love working with stylists, I person I like as a person as well as I like their work, and it's the same for the beauty team. And um, in the case of that editorial, I was actually pregnant of my first, but I didn't know at the time. I discovered later because um I didn't find out straight away. And so it's quite funny to think my first work as a photographer, I was pregnant and I didn't know it.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Yeah, and I really love that. It feels like there was something genuinely inside of you, right? Giving you that confidence to think, you know, that thought comes into your head, and you think, I'm just gonna photograph these clothes. Like, let's see what happens. And then that also coincides with physically having, you know, a being inside of you, and it's like, I don't know, maybe it's subconsciously, consciously that person being, you know, guiding you on this new path, both professionally. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Both metaphorically and physically. Um, so you said you didn't realize that you were pregnant. So, how did you feel when you found out?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Uh, very scared and very excited. It was it was both. Um, it was a bit of a shock, even though we were trying, so it was not a surprise baby. Um yeah, it was um it was putting a step into a really unknown world, especially yeah, as I didn't have any friends who had babies, so I had and I just didn't spend that much time with children or babies, so I had no idea what I was going into. Um yeah, and to continue on on the transformation and what how did I turn into photographer? Is once I had my my baby, I was going for long walks in Hampsteadies, which is where uh we were living at the time, every morning simply because my son wouldn't sleep in his code. So I was walking loads and he was napping, and I I guess that gave me the space to think of what I wanted to do, even though you are full baby brain and you just like your brain is like pure and you don't know you can't sing straight or even say in sentence properly I you mentioned um offline before. But in the same time, that kind of gave clarity. And so I realized actually I had my doubt about being a stylist, um, because what I didn't like was all the networking, the relationship you need to have with the PRs, how hard it is to pull like a show look for an editorial, all the travel of the look, how meaningless and not sustainable it is for the planet. I love playing with clothes, but there's a lot of logistic and a lot of parts that I didn't like. And at the end, um it is creative but not as much as I wished. And working with some photographers, some photographers I work with are absolutely adore and I still admire to this day, and the result was fantastic, but some it was not as close as I wished I imagined it. So that's how I wanted to make the change into photography. And um what happened when I was when I had my newborn uh and my baby, it was I had a really difficult year. Uh, I think at the time I was a bit in deny, but looking back at it, um I think I probably did like a postpartum depression. It was a difficult baby who then turned out to be a really easy toddler and now an angel child. So but as a baby he was really needy and difficult. So I had and also first baby, I think it's just difficult on every woman or every every parent. So it was really hard. But actually, how what kind of saved me is photography because my partner will take the baby for an hour or two, and then I will do some more gusses. I will invite girls who inspired me and I will take pictures of them just for myself, just to practice. And I was doing this I think weekly. I got a friend with a guy who was working in an agency and he will send me all his new teenage girls. And having a moment in the day where I didn't have to think about the baby, um, I have I had to schedule it when he was napping, which was really short. But it gave me, I don't know, it was like a little bubble of freedom in my day. And then when he would do his next nap, I will edit, and that would really bring me freedom and joy and a way to express myself, and it was that kind of escape from motherhood that I needed, and yeah, that saved me. That really it was really important. Then also, um, my NCT group, you know, having friends, talking to people keep you sane, but the photography at this time of my life was really important.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

That's so powerful, and the words escapism really come to mind when you say that in terms of um, yeah. I mean, those those first months are really hard. And actually, before we started recording, I feel like you were giving me support and coaching in terms of me saying how my brain, still at 15 months postpartum, um, feels a little mushy, and you were like, in a year, in another year's time, you'll feel totally different again. Um, but yeah, having that headspace and having that moment to yourself where you can, it's just you, that other girl in front of you, in front of the lens, and seeing what magic happens. It's incredibly, incredibly powerful. Um, and so what kind of I guess super powers do you feel that being a mother has bought you?

SPEAKER_00 19:17

I think it's interesting because your brain is mushy for a really long time, but in the same time, in that blurriness, you find I don't know, maybe it's guidance, uh you feel just guided into doing personal projects, which means a lot to you. You have some little bubble of clarity, almost like epiphany, and you're like, I've gotta do that. Uh, where I didn't really have before before being a mother. I had some ideas, but the pull was definitely stronger becoming a mother. And I think the superpower I guess that you get is you can really flip, you can be you go from one thing to another with no transition. And at first it's difficult, but then you get really used to it. You you know, you make a meal, and then the same time you edit, and then you put the bab the kids to bed, and then you go back to work, or even to these days, I take my son to see a swimming lesson, and then I have 30 minutes with my computer where I will work, so you just go from one thing to another all the time, and I think that's quite uh powerful actually.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Yeah, you maximize your time. Exactly. You really, really do make the most of it. Um so you were pregnant in 2018, um, you started as a photographer. How long um did you I I know you said you were obviously shooting girls like in between naps, but how long did you take off before actually kind of coming back full-time after the birth of your of your son?

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Um I think it was I mean, I'm still not completely full-time, but it's yeah, it's difficult to know exactly when you're full-time because I would work on evenings. Uh, I still have my daughter one day a week, so I'm not exactly full-time, full-time, but I am in a way, uh, because I can work on evening or on weekends, I just make it work this way. Um, but from uh when my son was a baby, I think it was really um by step basically. I think he had a nanny first for half a day, and then he went to nursery for two half days and so on. So I increased the time he was um cared for when he had childcare. Uh, I think I started from when he was six months. Before that, I had just my little pocket of doing some ghosts. And even if he was really little, he actually built up a tiny bit of work, and then from six months to a year, I think then he was maybe two days at nursery, and then I just increased it. But always kept um one day with him, and for my daughter that I now have, it's the same. But my vision, I mean, my vision, my um feels on it were really different. When my son, my first, I just couldn't wait to be back at work. I couldn't wait for him to go at nursery, and it was just really craving to work and get away from the motherhood. Where with my second one, I cherish so much the time that I have with her, and I'm a lot less in a hurry of going back completely full-time because I know she's gonna go to school in a year and a half, and then when they're in in school, it's kind of over, they're just not with you. They spend more time with their teacher than they spend with you. So actually, having two, I had very different experience. And um now I just my I take it slow with my work and I'm okay with that. Though before I was really wanted everything, uh I wanted to be successful, I wanted to make loads of money all at the same time really fast. Well now I just cherish uh the present a lot more.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah, and taking things slower, yes, um, which feels yeah, very important because time just evaporates in front of us. And so how have your expectations um around your career? You said you know, you were, you know, wanted to be successful, make money. Is that still? I mean, you are successful. I don't know about your finances, but you are successful. I mean, I was looking over your work beforehand, and you have photographed, you know, Olivia Dean recently, she's like one of the biggest music acts of the moment, which is like insanely impressive. Um, you know, what are the goals that you're gonna work towards when perhaps your daughter is at school and there is a perhaps a little bit more time? Will you put your foot on the pedal, make things go a bit quicker, or like what what are your viewpoints?

SPEAKER_00 24:01

I think my ambition, I'm still ambitious, but yeah, as I just said, I think I'm okay for my objective to happen a bit slower than I was before. Um, the change of career was a big one for me, and I think what was really important for me was to money-wise be able to uh make it work as a photographer. And uh once I achieved that I felt a lot more confident. So I don't make a big salary, but enough to sustain and bring a salary to my family, and so I think now what matters to me for the future and my ambition are actually more towards making more meaningful projects and almost taking like more of an art career, but I still also want to um make more money, I guess, so be a bit higher in the commercial world. I guess it will be a bit of both, but the commercial aspects means uh somehow a little less to me because I think I value more the um how meaningful are my projects and where what do I want to bring to the world, how can I um show my vision? And I guess I'm really into like giving visibility to women who don't have much visibility for a reason who are from minorities or that you're not really used to see in um magazine or public spaces. And I think my life goal is probably about that more than making tons of money.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

Yeah, you know what? Your it sounds like your values, your visions shifted, right? And I think we live in a society where it's all go, go, go, gotta make money, gotta have this, gotta have that. But actually, you know, being happy, being healthy, um are equally as important, right? If not more important than that.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

Yeah, and also yeah, just the present is the the best you can appreciate. Um the kids go so fast. I mean, you probably heard that a thousand times, but it is true though, and you won't have it back. So this is what I cherish the most. I think being a freelancer, at first I will I find it really difficult to share my time between work and between motherhood, because I had guilt in both ways. So if I was not looking after my baby when I would put him to nursery, I felt guilty to leave him to nursery to have other people to care for him. And then if I was not working, I was also feeling guilty because I thought I'm not bringing any money to the house. Um, I should be working right now, my career is not working. So I really had guilt in both ways. Where I had my daughter, I don't know, you you transform even more with a second child. I mean, not even more, but you keep transforming with the second child, and your priority really changed. I think I had it really hard with my son, because he was a difficult baby, but just also because he was the first. Um, the first year was really, really hard, as I mentioned before. So it was almost like um it was almost like a death of myself. It was a death of who I was as a person, uh as a woman, and because becoming a mother, and it was really actually quite different to what I was expecting. I think maybe I was influenced by my mother who told me it will be easy, it will be fine, but maybe she just forgot how hard it was, or maybe I don't know why, but she was like, Oh, it will be fine, you can keep working, can do this and that. Babies are just easy. Well, spoiler alert, it's not easy.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

It's not easy. Um let's talk about COVID and how that affected um your career. I know you were living in France in that time, and so you had um you're with your son, um, and you opened an online store or you were making decorative objects. Tell me tell me more about this.

SPEAKER_00 28:08

Yeah, so COVID was well a weird period for everybody. Uh, we decided to go back where I grew up in south of France, and um to be honest, it was quite a nice COVID for us because we were living in a farm, uh, we were outside all the time, there was like a big land, so we could just be outside, the weather was good, so it was a really nice way to spend the COVID. But then in terms of career, it was again a bit of a shift because I wasn't sure how it will um turn out, the COVID and my career, and um I thought I would bounce back and um even if we were in France and it would be difficult to be a photographer, but actually once we were there, I was like, oh, I can't see it working here, and I felt less inspired somehow. So I just started to do uh some decorative objects and I put that together. Um I was working really hard and making really little money, and once I developed all the branding sort of vision image side of things, I was taking all the pictures of my object and I was still doing photography aside, but the making object took um the most part, but then I realized I was really not happy and it got really repetitive. Like I was almost like working in a factory, but which was my house, making the same object, and it didn't fulfil me creatively. Um, my partner who is a photographer as well was traveling loads for photography, and at the time I didn't have my driving lesson, so I felt really isolated. So it was again a change of career, even though I was still doing I did a few personal projects, but then I realized it wasn't for me, and my true love where I felt like could express myself most was photography, and I um took that back once we moved back to London just after COVID.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

And so, what made you move back to London? Was it COVID-ending or was there anything else that happened?

SPEAKER_00 30:07

I think we we really we tried really hard to make it work in France, but the reality was a bit different from growing up. I think the lifestyle is amazing. The weekends we were at the beach, even in winter, we had we were doing amazing hikes, and uh my mother was close, also. That was also in the equation really important to have support from the family with um such a young child, um toddler then at the time. Uh, but we decided to go back. We just got really lucky. There was just an opportunity, and I just see it as a it was just a sign really. I just uh registered to a newsletter called Modernist Estate, which rent modernist property. I saw one, it was so beautiful and amazing, and fell in love with it. Um, I just happened to have a shoot in London the following week, so I visited that place and um and the landlord didn't ask for any paper. He liked us because we were creative and he was like, Yeah, you can rent it. And I was like, Okay, well, we actually will uh we're in France, so we need three months. Can we rent in three months? He was like, Yep, sure. It was so straightforward, it was really amazing. It was like um, I don't know, really like a luck from the universe, and it was the best decision, really. It was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

I love that you get sent a gift from the universe that literally never happens. Hold the property for three months. Um, amazing. So you come back, and then you're like fully focused on on photography than when you're back in London?

SPEAKER_00 31:42

I come back actually pregnant, uh, three months pregnant. Um, so it was a bit of an in-between time again. So I took back photography, I start earning money from it as I left it, and actually a bit more if I remember correctly, but also I focus uh on myself uh because second pregnancy is much harder than the first one. So I was really tired. So I do a good mix, I think. I look after myself, I rest a lot, but also I work, uh so I share my time like this. My son goes to nursery then in London. Um, so I try to do, I guess, best of both worlds, keep my practice um going, keep my relationship with the clients that I had, but in the same time knowing that the second one is coming and I can't push myself too hard. Did you feel like you were up against a deadline with the birth of your second child? Um not really actually. I felt more that with the first one. There was some project I wanted to do before before he was born, but with my daughter, um actually I think I took it a bit easier. I think I did still feel a bit of a deadline. I still did like two projects towards the end that I really wanted to do because I knew then it would be harder. But I took it, I guess, easier. And um, yeah, as I mentioned before, my son, when he was born, he fall he almost felt like a death of myself. But having my daughter and having a second child was almost like a rebirth. So I have a very different postpartum. Had an amazing postpartum with my second one. Um it was just it was just a dream, really. Having a daughter, having a second one. I felt like my family was complete and I really cherish the moment and I was really less in a rush as well. I just enjoy uh all the baby classes, the walk in the park, again because you know it goes just so fast, and I was less in a rush to go back to photography. And once I did, I did it the same way. So first she had a nanny, then she went to nursery, and then I increased, and I really enjoy going back to nursery, but felt a lot less in a rush.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Yeah, and I I wonder whether that comes from having the experience of your firstborn, but then also COVID. You know that you can change, you can pause, and things are still always there for you to pick up at your own pace.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Exactly. I think COVID had like such an impact on everybody, but that time I was I was not taking pictures of women, but I will take pictures of my kids actually, uh, because there was the only one available, and I just wanted to keep that time um in pictures, and I really cherished that. And with my second one, I took less time to photograph her as much because it wasn't COVID, and uh babies don't really like to be photographed, so it's quite a hard challenge, but then you have the picture and it's amazing because this um they grow fast and it's so far from how they are looking right now. And um during COVID it was also really nice to do some still life and to experiment and to pose was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yeah, that sounds that sounds really amazing. And so um what are you most proud of in your career since becoming a mother?

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Um I guess I would say uh I'm most proud of having changed career because I think it's something I felt coming, but I didn't necessarily have the courage to do. And the fact that I did it and I made it work, even though, in my opinion, I'm very far to where I want to be, where my uh where my goal is, but still I think it was quite a bold move, and I kinda I tend to forget that. And sometimes uh I will have a close friend who was like, Well, you weren't a photographer before, so of course you you might lack some technicity, uh you might know everything, but also you didn't study photography, you never assisted, and so you know where you are is is pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

I think honestly it's amazing and it really fascinates me the change, and and you're right, having that courage and being so bold to make it. I know plenty of creatives that will be listening to this thinking, like, damn, I wish I had that courage, I wish I had that bold move within me to make the change or make the shift.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

But it's really nice of you to say because uh I mean I don't feel like this every day, but sometimes having someone telling you that actually feels it feels really good. I think for me being a creative and um a lot of my friends are creative, whether they're in photography or in other fields, it's for me it's really a call. It's something it's like if you are an actor, a dancer, uh it's really unlikely you will be successful actually. But in a way, there is nothing else I could do. It's really um I need to do it, whether it makes sense or not. I can't do something else. Um I sort of all the plan B for my career, which commercially will make more sense and will be a lot more stable, but this is how I feel I need to express myself. And even though I could make money with um another career, um I feel I have something to express and I can't do without it.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah, I I love that. And and again, it's like perhaps we're always putting so much emphasis on success equals big bank balance.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Yes, exactly. And as a as a woman also it's it's hard to um to I don't know, you feel like you you need to make the money. I I don't know, being successful is making money in the in the mind of a lot of people, and it's really hard to get out of this idea. So what does success look like for you? Um I think I would like to uh make a book, make exhibitions, and I'm still I guess craving recognition from the the industry. I think that will feel really nice, but I guess I'm transforming this into like I just want to make myself proud with the meaning, uh having more integrity. I mean I think uh my project have integrity but more continue in that way, whether you please people or not. I just want to um please myself and then please my inspire my children, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Yeah, uh that I I love that. Inspire children definitely. Um and yeah, I think when I look at your work, I find it hard to believe that actually photographies not be you've not been doing it for a long, you know, like decades, because all of your work looks like it's shot by one person. You have a clear style, there is such spirit, such youth in your work. And I feel like um perhaps you you mentioned about wanting to do kind of more fine art and and more projects. Does that lean into that kind of spirited youth? Um, that that culture? What what other projects uh do you have in mind that you'd like to shoot?

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Um I have different themes that I want to explore. Motherhood is always a big project, and what I like is to uh show women and mothers to embrace their own work or identity through motherhood. For example, I showed dancers, uh, and then I will embrace the fact that they're dancers and pregnant or with children. I shot a friend who is a stylist, and I really wanted to kind of honor the fact that she loved playing with clothes, and so she styled herself, and that was really fun. So it's something I would like to continue uh to embrace and um the the identity of the woman and the motherhood, like this this duality between motherhood and who you were before or who you became something that really interests me. This change of identity.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

And I think uh what I'm hearing is like your role there is to empower the woman.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Yes, I love um showing women as bold, empowered, confident uh person, but also showing their vulnerability. I think it's a bit of a mix. So motherhood is one of my big theme, and then women as well. Um, as I said before, I love showing women who are not necessarily seen very much in magazine, like curve models, they have a lot to say, they show their body in a very different way, something I really love, and working with um kids as well around the theme of play and uh craftsmanship is something I'm very into as well, so continue that world too.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Yeah, um, yeah, play craftsmanship. So there's such like a natural sensibility about that. It feels very it feels very real, you know, and perhaps um it's you know fashion can be a bit of a facade, you know, a bit of smoke and mirrors, but actually your work feels like you're photographing the real person, the essence of them, and stepping back from that.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

That's really nice compliment from you. Thank you for that. Uh yeah, I think I want to uh maybe go a bit out of fashion somehow to make it more about also AI in the mix really came. I think a lot of photographers thought what are gonna what's gonna happen to me, and my thoughts on it is actually I want to go more towards uh documentary and to show like the intimacy and the real people in opposition to what AI can do. And but coming back to I guess my whole vision, I feel like I studied fashion at school, and I remember one of my tutors being like, Oh, it's interesting how some students are so young, but they have such a clear vision already. At the time I was really inspired by Sofia Coppola, uh Larry Clark. I was always in between the trash and the super romantic, and I think that still shows in my work. Um, and so yeah, he told me this about some students, but it was also about me. And I think my work as a stylist is also the same vein as it is as a photographer. So for me, this is just another media um to express my vision. So it's always been there, and always um this is not something I need to force really. Yeah, but the as a photographer, the technical part is the hard part. But I think you can't be good at all the points in photography, and if you if you lack some things, which is in my case, all the technical aspect, you make it work by having people who can support you in that area.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Definitely. I think the vision is the key thing, and I love that you reference Sophia Coppola and Larry Clark. I mean, it's like kids, the virgin suicides like spring to mind, and I feel like, yeah, I can totally see the the parallels in your work. Um, I'd actually love to talk to you about um your project with the is it five sisters? Three sisters, four sisters, four sisters. Can you um tell me about that? How you started photographing them, um, their individual identities as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Um yeah, I think individual identities, I love showing um women and embrace uh empowered that they feel empowered. So I shot uh four sisters in south of France. I think it was a couple of summers ago. Um, but before that, I found one of the sisters, um Valentine, on Instagram, contacted her, and then I scouted her for an editorial I shot in south of France, and she mentioned she had um uh sisters, and one of them was really interested to be photographed. I think at the time she was 13, and they look really different but interesting, and so I was keen to show. shoot her as well and the other one was too little and was not interested and Valentin also had a twin sister but not identical to him so they look very different who wasn't available. So on that first occasion I shoot two the two girls and then um the summer following asked them if they would be interested to be photographed altogether and it was a really nice moment. I collaborated with a stylist from Barcelona, Roxanne that I'm very fond of that I collaborated with before and we just took the car and uh went to the house and showed them in the garden in their parents uh house and it was a it was a lovely moment and I love shooting people more than once because you create that relationship and distrust and they feel just uh more and more comfortable and I always kept in touch with Valentine and even with the two the other sisters actually um I then she wanted to go into modeling and I represented her the mother agent, help her to place her in London um and so we always kept this relationship and it's something I would like to reshoot them again but I don't know it at all. I mean so actually like let's just add in the fact that you're a mother agent for a while and yeah I mean this was just um shooting so many models you kind of understand how it works and you understand the industry and I have a friend who was also a mother agent and so I just asked him um advice about it. Um is actually pretty straightforward so I just hired Valentine to be placed in London um sadly it didn't really work out for her she's a curve model she's amazing looking but maybe um the industry was a bit more safe at the time focusing on photography.

SPEAKER_01 45:50

Um and as we slowly kind of wrap things up I just wondered can you give a piece of advice to your former self? You know if you glanced yourself back into uh 2019 2017 you're working as a stylist um what would you tell yourself compared to where you are now?

SPEAKER_00 46:15

Um I think when I was in this era I was actually really confident and I was really sure that I would make it big, make it fast so I would say well if you're gonna have children it's gonna be much slower than you think is gonna happen. I think when you I mean in my case when I was in my early twenties I thought I was on the top of the world and everything was possible and I was so fearless but actually growing up you grow fears as well and becoming a mother you have this superpower but also the reality is hard and you also slow you down. So I guess I would tell my um younger self to not be too in a hurry things will happen but maybe slower than you think and um I will say that uh being bold pay yourself as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Yeah being bold and being slow and just I feel like listen to the universe see what it serves you because things do fall into place on their own accord. Yeah that is true. Amazing well thank you so much Florence it's been just wonderful chatting to you hearing your tales and your experiences and um can you tell us where can we see more of your work where can we find you online uh you can find my work on Instagram my name is Florence Mann with two N at the end so it's quite easy.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

But thank you so much for having me Sabrina and I think uh what I listen for podcasts is all about creativity or motherhood and actually having a podcast with two it seems to be a perfect mix.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Thank you so much I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Florence she's honestly pretty fearless in my opinion change your name change discipline just try something new and I think that's really powerful. I think it's really an important lesson to us all that actually yeah just you've just got to try something and see where it goes. I also thought it was really moving when she explained how she felt like it was the death of her with the birth of her first child and then she went on to be reborn with the birth of her second child. It's not something that I've heard about before and um yeah I felt really privileged for to hear that from Florence herself. You'll find links to Florence's work in our show notes and please follow the podcast and leave a quick review if this spoke to you. It makes a huge difference and it helps more mothers and creatives find these conversations.